Much of the discussion surrounding the economic fallout from COVID-19 has been focused on the shape of the recovery. Will it be V, U, or L shaped? In this interview with longtime friend and confidant Danielle DiMartino Booth of Quill Intelligence, David Kotok, CIO of Cumberland Advisors, argues that it will be Grand Canyon shaped, with a steep fall and an equally steep rise that reaches a plateau well below where we were when we descended into the canyon. As well, they touch on WWII as a valuable historical reference point, Kotok’s frustration with the policy decisions and messaging surrounding COVID-19 and the inevitable political consequences, and his strong views on globalization and the economic harm that the acceleration of trends in de-globalization could cause. Filmed on July 13, 2020.